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In Response to Lister on Israel and Terrorism

January 18, 2009

There has been much debate on Israel’s crimes against humanity, mostly decrying the “excessive force” that Israel has used in its attempt to stop the threat of Hamas’ rocket attacks into southern Israel.  The prevailing opinion seems to be that Israel is at fault, this always seems to be the prevailing opinion in matters involving Israel and the Palestinians.  Recently I have been engaged in a small debate with someone calling himself “Lister.”  I am lifting his most recent comment to one of my comments on his post here with my answers to his comments, due to the fact that in the interest of free speech and honest debate my friend Lister has decided that comments that offer opinions different than his own should be deleted.

Me:

“There has been no outcry of the qassams from anyone but Israel and people like me. The world as a whole ignored the issue of Hamas’s crimes against Israel. ”

 

Lister:

“You’re very ignorant, DB
It only takes a moment on google to prove you wrong.”

Ok, Lister where am I wrong?

HRW (2005): Hamas must cease immediately “Qassam” rocket and mortar attacks against civilian areas, Human Rights Watch said today.

IHT (Feb 2008 ): UN humanitarian chief condemns Palestinian rocket attacks”But when statements like that are made, they don’t cause controversy. So you don’t notice them.

Nice links.  Did you bother to read them? 

Regarding HRW(2005), this was down at the bottom of the article, I guess it was too much effort to read that far down.

In the past, Israel has retaliated against Qassam attacks with large-scale military operations that have resulted in the deaths of civilians, leveled land and demolished homes and other buildings. The most destructive Israeli response to a Qassam attack, a 17-day-long operation in October 2004, named by the Israeli army as “Days of Penitence,” targeted the Jabalya refugee camp, from where it was believed Hamas launched Qassams resulting in the death of two Israeli children in the town of Sderot in September 2004. The operation led to the death of approximately 107 Palestinians, a quarter under the age of 18, and the injury of 431, as well as the demolition of at least 91 homes. When questioned by Human Rights Watch about the destruction in October 2004, Israeli General Israel Ziv could not articulate a military purpose for the attack, but said the attack was necessary to punish Jabalya residents for their support of the armed groups.

Human Rights Watch said that unlawful attacks committed in response to another unlawful attack are a form of reprisal, which is a violation of international humanitarian law, and Israel should refrain from repeating them.

Don’t you just hate when an anti-Hamas statement points the finger of guilt at the Israelis?

Regarding IHT(Feb 2008), about halfway down the article, in the middle of it in fact.  Maybe your reading skills are a little lacking?

Holmes, however, said the only way to solve the problem is through a peace agreement between Israel and the Palestinians.

“At the end of the day, the only thing that will make a lasting difference is a peace settlement,” he said. “You can’t stop these problems militarily. They have to be solved through negotiations.”

Israel is trying to negotiate a peace agreement with the moderate Palestinian government in the West Bank. At the same time, Israel is battling the rival Hamas government in the Gaza Strip.

The peace agreement Holmes talks about is a nice option.  It would be preferable to all of the needless deaths, but there is a small problem with a “peace agreement.”  There can be no peace agreement with Hamas.  Hamas does NOT want peace.  What Hamas wants is the total destruction of Israel and Israelis.  To back this claim up, we can merely rely on Hamas’ Charter itself:

In The Name Of The Most Merciful Allah

“Ye are the best nation that hath been raised up unto mankind: ye command that which is just, and ye forbid that which is unjust, and ye believe in Allah. And if they who have received the scriptures had believed, it had surely been the better for them: there are believers among them, but the greater part of them are transgressors. They shall not hurt you, unless with a slight hurt; and if they fight against you, they shall turn their backs to you, and they shall not be helped. They are smitten with vileness wheresoever they are found; unless they obtain security by entering into a treaty with Allah, and a treaty with men; and they draw on themselves indignation from Allah, and they are afflicted with poverty. This they suffer, because they disbelieved the signs of Allah, and slew the prophets unjustly; this, because they were rebellious, and transgressed.” (Al-Imran – verses 109-111).

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it” (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory).

“The Islamic world is on fire. Each of us should pour some water, no matter how little, to extinguish whatever one can without waiting for the others.” (Sheikh Amjad al-Zahawi, of blessed memory).

 This is how the Hamas Charter begins, but wait, there is much more to it.

Praise be unto Allah, to whom we resort for help, and whose forgiveness, guidance and support we seek; Allah bless the Prophet and grant him salvation, his companions and supporters, and to those who carried out his message and adopted his laws – everlasting prayers and salvation as long as the earth and heaven will last. Hereafter:

O People:
Out of the midst of troubles and the sea of suffering, out of the palpitations of faithful hearts and cleansed arms; out of the sense of duty, and in response to Allah’s command, the call has gone out rallying people together and making them follow the ways of Allah, leading them to have determined will in order to fulfill their role in life, to overcome all obstacles, and surmount the difficulties on the way. Constant preparation has continued and so has the readiness to sacrifice life and all that is precious for the sake of Allah.

Thus it was that the nucleus (of the movement) was formed and started to pave its way through the tempestuous sea of hopes and expectations, of wishes and yearnings, of troubles and obstacles, of pain and challenges, both inside and outside.

When the idea was ripe, the seed grew and the plant struck root in the soil of reality, away from passing emotions, and hateful haste. The Islamic Resistance Movement emerged to carry out its role through striving for the sake of its Creator, its arms intertwined with those of all the fighters for the liberation of Palestine. The spirits of its fighters meet with the spirits of all the fighters who have sacrificed their lives on the soil of Palestine, ever since it was conquered by the companions of the Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, and until this day.

This Covenant of the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS), clarifies its picture, reveals its identity, outlines its stand, explains its aims, speaks about its hopes, and calls for its support, adoption and joining its ranks. Our struggle against the Jews is very great and very serious. It needs all sincere efforts. It is a step that inevitably should be followed by other steps. The Movement is but one squadron that should be supported by more and more squadrons from this vast Arab and Islamic world, until the enemy is vanquished and Allah’s victory is realised.

Thus we see them coming on the horizon “and you shall learn about it hereafter” “Allah hath written, Verily I will prevail, and my apostles: for Allah is strong and mighty.” (The Dispute – verse 21).

“Say to them, This is my way: I invite you to Allah, by an evident demonstration; both I and he who followeth me; and, praise be unto Allah! I am not an idolator.” (Joseph – verse 107).

Lister:

“What bothers you is any attempt to understand why Qassams are launched. Any attempt to lay any blame on Israel.”

Actually Lister, I understand why the Qassams are launched, obviously better than you do.  What bothers me is any attempt to blame Israel when Hamas deserves all the blame, according to its own Charter, by Allah’s command to conquer all that isn’t Islam.  If the quotes from Hamas’ Charter aren’t enough sofar, how about some more?

Article One:

The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement’s programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.

Article Two:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Muslim Brotherhood in Palestine. Muslim Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.

Article Three:

The basic structure of the Islamic Resistance Movement consists of Muslims who have given their allegiance to Allah whom they truly worship, – “I have created the jinn and humans only for the purpose of worshipping” – who know their duty towards themselves, their families and country. In all that, they fear Allah and raise the banner of Jihad in the face of the oppressors, so that they would rid the land and the people of their uncleanliness, vileness and evils.

“But we will oppose truth to vanity, and it shall confound the same; and behold, it shall vanish away.” (Prophets – verse 18).

Article Four:

The Islamic Resistance Movement welcomes every Muslim who embraces its faith, ideology, follows its programme, keeps its secrets, and wants to belong to its ranks and carry out the duty. Allah will certainly reward such one.

Article Five:

Time extent of the Islamic Resistance Movement: By adopting Islam as its way of life, the Movement goes back to the time of the birth of the Islamic message, of the righteous ancestor, for Allah is its target, the Prophet is its example and the Koran is its constitution. Its extent in place is anywhere that there are Muslims who embrace Islam as their way of life everywhere in the globe. This being so, it extends to the depth of the earth and reaches out to the heaven.

“Dost thou not see how Allah putteth forth a parable; representing a good word, as a good tree, whose root is firmly fixed in the earth, and whose branches reach unto heaven; which bringeth forth its fruit in all seasons, by the will of its Lord? Allah propoundeth parables unto men, that they may be instructed.” (Abraham – verses 24-25).

Article Five makes clear that Israel is only the start, after Israel is destroyed, the entire world is to be destroyed for the sake of Allah.  But wait, there is much more to this.

Article Six:

The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out.

How excellent was the Muslim poet, Mohamed Ikbal, when he wrote:

“If faith is lost, there is no security and there is no life for him who does not adhere to religion. He who accepts life without religion, has taken annihilation as his companion for life.”

Does anyone else notice that in all its praise of Islam, and the desire that all should be subjected to Islamic rule, Hamas forgot to mention that all non-muslims would have to pay the jizya.  For those who haven’t checked, I’m inclined to believe that my friend Lister is one who hasn’t bothered to learn about this, the jizya is a tax for not being the “right religion.”  Muslim countries use it to control non-muslims and make them second-class citizens.  While Hamas’ Charter does not specifically require the jizya, Allah’s teachings do, and Hamas’ Charter does require strict Islamic rule.

The Universality of the Islamic Resistance Movement:

Article Seven:

As a result of the fact that those Muslims who adhere to the ways of the Islamic Resistance Movement spread all over the world, rally support for it and its stands, strive towards enhancing its struggle, the Movement is a universal one. It is well-equipped for that because of the clarity of its ideology, the nobility of its aim and the loftiness of its objectives.

On this basis, the Movement should be viewed and evaluated, and its role be recognised. He who denies its right, evades supporting it and turns a blind eye to facts, whether intentionally or unintentionally, would awaken to see that events have overtaken him and with no logic to justify his attitude. One should certainly learn from past examples.

The injustice of next-of-kin is harder to bear than the smite of the Indian sword.

“We have also sent down unto thee the book of the Koran with truth, confirming that scripture which was revealed before it; and preserving the same safe from corruption. Judge therefore between them according to that which Allah hath revealed; and follow not their desires, by swerving from the truth which hath come unto thee. Unto every of you have we given a law, and an open path; and if Allah had pleased, he had surely made you one people; but he hath thought it fit to give you different laws, that he might try you in that which he hath given you respectively. Therefore strive to excel each other in good works; unto Allah shall ye all return, and then will he declare unto you that concerning which ye have disagreed.” (The Table, verse 48).

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the links in the chain of the struggle against the Zionist invaders. It goes back to 1939, to the emergence of the martyr Izz al-Din al Kissam and his brethren the fighters, members of Muslim Brotherhood. It goes on to reach out and become one with another chain that includes the struggle of the Palestinians and Muslim Brotherhood in the 1948 war and the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1968 and after.

Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said:

“The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

But wait still longer.  Article 8 is even better.

The Slogan of the Islamic Resistance Movement:

Article Eight:

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

Lister:

People were dying in Gaza because of the blockade. But you don’t care. You don’t even think it matters that 800 people have died.

On the contrary Lister, I do care.  But I am not will ing to point the finger at Israel when Hamas is the guilty party. 

You might be interested in this link  http://latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/commentary/la-oe-dershowitz10-2009jan10,0,1953549.story  It clearly shows that the Palestinian civilians that have been killed were targeted for death, not by Israel, but, rather, by Hamas at Israel’s hands.  In other words, “death for the sake of Allah” whether you want it or not.  If you don’t want death for the sake of Allah, Hamas will arrange it for you.

Lister quotes me here:

In September of 2001, we had 3,000 people killed by Al-Qaeda. In response to that attack we have killed how many? The fact of war is that “proportionate responses” don’t win.

Lister’s response?  My friend Lister shows his ignorance of military matters and history now.

The day after 9/11, America had conquered the world. A few wars later and what have you gained? America’s standing in the world has never been lower. America’s influence in the world is diminishing, and only a fool would talk about this being a New American Century.

And you think you’re winning the war?

Actually, the day after 9/11 we hadn’t conquered the world.  That was the day we dug our dead out of the rubble.  That same day we vowed to exact our revenge on the murdering sons of bitches that killed our friends, family and neighbors.  To be honest, we don’t really care about “our standing in the world.”  We believe it is more important to be alive than to be liked.  England wants to be nice to the Islamists, where has it gotten them?  The London subway bombings can tell you whsat London gained.  Also the fact that London is now facing the very real threat of sha’ria law.  Indonesia is another good example.  They wanted to be “nice” to the Islamists.  What happened there?  Oh yeah, the Bali nightclub bombings happened.  How about France?  They were nice to the Islamists.  Paris almost burned to the ground for it.  Denmark?  They got rioting over a stupid cartoon.  China has had problems with the Islamists.  The Philippines have had problems with the Islamists. 

America’s “standing” in the world may be at its lowest point, but let me ask you a question, Lister.  When was the last attack on American soil?  The answer is simple, we haven’t since the 9/11 attacks.  Why not?  Because we Because until now we have had a President that understands the threat and understands how to deal with it.  Because we weren’t concerned with a “proportionate response,” we were concerned with getting the revenge we wanted.  I never heard anyone but you talk about a “New American Century,” we aren’t really looking for a new American century.  We just want to terrorists and Islamists to understand that they can’t conquer us.

Are we winning the war?  Sofar, yes.  It is you self-righteous “go along to get along” idiots that are loosing.  When the fighting ends and you have to face Mecca five times a day to pray, while we go on living our lives with the religion we choose, you will understand.  Unfortunately, it will be too late for you to change the outcome then.

Lister quotes me again here:

All wars are one and lost the same way, one side kills more of the other side than the losing side can stand leading the losing side to quit the fight.

Lister’s response?

“That is simplistic rubbish. Wars are won by the side that achieves their aims.”

Ok, Lister I have a question for you, why did Germany surrender after WWII?  Because we achieved our goal of carpet bombing Berlin and killing enough Germans that they lost their stomach for the fight.  How about Japan?  They gave up the fight because they proved their point to us?  No, they gave up the fight because we dropped two nuclear bombs that killed enough people they lost their stomach to fight, as well.  Why did the British give up at the end of our Revolutionary War?  Their goal was to keep the colonies under British rule.  Did they quit because we achieved our goal of killing more British troops than they had the stomach to lose?  Actually, yes, that was exactly the reason the gave up on the fight. 

Broken down to its most basic nature, there are only two goals in a war, conquer or avoid being conquered.  These two goals are achieved by killing.  The way to achieve these goals is, like I said, to kill more of the enemy than the enemy can stomach to lose.  They will always quit the fight before they face extinction.

Lister, again with the “New American Century”:

That’s how things are measured. There is no New American Century so Cheney and his pals have failed.

Cheney wasn’t the President, Bush was, how about we get a grip on reality, Lister?  As I said earlier, we haven’t been hit by another Terror attack on American soil yet, so we really haven’t failed.

Me again:

I am surprised that you would use wiki as a source, anyone can put anything on wiki, leading it to be full of inconsistant, and even false, “facts.”

Lister:

That’s a cop-out. Check its sources.

Ok Lister, let’s get this right.  Wiki’s sources are anyone who wants to post on a subject.  I could go on wiki and post alot of gibberish about quantum physics, I know nothing about quantum physics, but I can post on them on wiki. 

Me again,  I’m sure all get the idea that I don’t really care for Hamas by now:

To be honest, no I don’t protest the deaths of the Palestinians, they are the ones that knowingly elected a terrorist organization who declares that Israel has no right to exist and vows to destroy Israel. It was the Palestinians that let Hamas fire rockets into Israel, with the full support of the citizens. It was the Palestinians that let Hamas hid weapons and fighters within the civilian community, using the civilians as human shields.

Lister:

When I get comments like that, I always link to Chomsky. I’m sure that most of those I respond to do not recognise themselves in bin Laden’s words. But, believe me, you and bin Laden are two of a kind.

On February 12, the statements of Osama bin Laden were reviewed in the New York Times by NYU law professor Noah Feldman. He described bin Laden’s descent into utter barbarism, reaching the depths when he advanced “the perverse claim that since the United States is a democracy, all citizens bear responsibility for its government’s actions, and civilians are therefore fair targets.” Utter depravity, no doubt.

Two days later, the lead story in the Times casually reported that the United States and Israel are joining bin Laden in the lower depths of depravity.

Palestinians offended the masters by voting the wrong way in a free election. The population must therefore be punished for this crime. The “intention,” the correspondent observed, “is to starve the Palestinian Authority of money and international connections” so that President Mahmoud Abbas will be “compelled to call a new election. The hope is that Palestinians will be so unhappy with life under Hamas that they will return to office a reformed and chastened Fatah movement.” Mechanisms of punishment of the population are outlined. The article also reports that Condoleezza Rice will visit the oil producers to ensure that they do not relieve the torture of the Palestinians. In short, bin Laden’s “perverse claim”; but when the United States advances the claim, it is not ultimate evil but rather righteous dedication to “democracy promotion.”

You are a terrorist.
You are willing to punish innocent people for the actions of their government.

Lister you tried hard, but your logic escapes me.  When did the US hide weapons in the World Trade Center?  When did we use those weapons to fire on Al-Qaeda?  Answer: we didn’t.  That is the difference between us and Bin Laden, and the difference between Israel and the Palestinians and Hamas.  We are not talking about punishing innocent people, we are talking about two things here.  The Israelis have to take out the weapons and Hamas, because of how Hamas hides behinds the skirts of women and the children, the only way to get those weapons and terrorists is to endanger the women and children.  Hamas does this on purpose, their goal is to draw Israel into killing innocents to fire up other Islamists against Israel and her allies.  If Israel doesn’t want to kill the innocent women and children of Gaza, how do you propose they get rid of the rockets being fired into Israel?  One other question, why don’t you say anything about the rockets fired into Israel?  Why don’t you care about the innocent Israeli women and children that are killed, and have been killed since 1948?

No, I’m not a terrorist, this isn’t a terrorist attack.  I don’t support terrorism.  I don’t support what Hamas has done, I don’t support the “innocent civilians that allow Hamas to do what they do from the homes of the “innocent civilians.”  I do, however, support Israel’s right to defend their “innocent civilians.” 

Lister’s last word on this matter?

“Consider that the last word on this matter. I will delete any further posts you make.”

Ok, Lister, but you can’t delete this.  Free speech always finds a way, and so do I.

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